Ge Em,
Per our email sign-up, we don't require personal information other than a valid email address. We don't even know who you are. The same is true for Ge Wiz. So if you want to contact us with your real info at an offline mailbox, we can talk then.
We are not protecting anyone. We simply don't have the information.
Please send your personal information to: webmaster@creativepro.com
While hoefler could reply and apologise, and creative pro contact me, why can the person hiding behind his alias not aplogise for the incorrect, rude, insulting, illegal statement he made regarding me and theft of fonts from Hoefler type foundry.
A simple apology, in recognition of his baseless and false accusation is all I wanted, but his actions in total indifference has made me consider harder recompense. Creative Pro has offered to supply me with the sign on email address of this person,
Irrespective of your post, you are legally required to supply me the information I requested regarding the poster called Gee Wiz.
I have asked for this information for my solicitor and you refuse.
A discussion consists of opposite views and disagreements, but to state outright I stole fonts from someone (in other words claiming I am a pirate of fonts/software) is pure slander and illegal in all forms across the internet. I am within my rights to demand the information regarding this individual, and you are protecting him by not supplying it.
I have emailed J. Hoefler and he was kindly apologetic for his support of this persons statement, but the person himself is being hidden and protected by the creativepro team.
1. I did not rip off any fonts !
2. I personally have had fonts stolen from me by commercial foundries !
3. commercial foundries never seem to accuse other commercial foundries of piracy.
I just saw this URL:
http://jeff.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/lawsuit.html
I don't know what Hoefler and his friends are so happy about. If I filed a 20 million dollar lawsuit and had to go home with nothing after spending so much money I would be very pissed and I would keep my mouth shut. Apostrophe seems quite open about the whole story so I don't think he's lying. The John Berry article on here is just Hoefler's email spinned off. John Berry and his editors should have had enough sense to research their information before publishing it because now they look stupid, biased, and insincere about their reporting.
If what Apostrophe says is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, those seven foundries have put their whole industry in deep ka ka. Seven of them combined against one guy had to accept nothing for their cost and efforts, and the usenet orgy still goes on. Hoefler's fonts were uploaded on the mac fonts newsgroup just yesterday. Emigre's fonts are uploaded there everyday. There's a million Apostrophes but how many seven foundry coalitions are about to sue them and get nothing for it?
Wake the hell up Hoefler. You don't like piracy? What did you do about it and what did you get for your efforts to stop it? A press release that someone else wrote for you? So sad.
Submitted by Cliff Jones on Thu, 04/11/2002 - 15:57.
Maybe I should get info on person who slandered me off in earlier post, supported by Hoefler, by stating that "You should not have ripped off the fonts", in other words, accusing me of font piracy. I feel like a few extra million bucks would go down nicely, unless an apology is posted.
I do want to clarify two things from creativepro.com's point of view.
1) Any regular reader of John D. Berry's work knows that "dot-font" is an opinion column. It should be read as such.
2) If you re-read the column you see that the Hoefler release serves as a jumping off point for a larger dicussion of font piracy. Out of 15 paragraphs only 4 refer to the case in question.
Creativepro.com is a Web site for creative professionals. These are primarily people who are paid to produce creative work. We believe that those who do good work and who ask for money in exchange for that work should be compensated. That applies equally to type design and column writing or carpentry and cooking.
We also believe that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and the comments posted in this forum should be construed as just that -- the opinion of the person who posted them.
4. The Plaintiffs may publicize on their respective websites that an Order has been obtained against the Internet alias "Apostrophe" for an undisclosed amount.
I think the pricing for fonts needs to be reconsidered. Most cost about $20 a face, so if I need only: Roman, Bold, Italic, and Bold Italic; that's $100 bucks. $100 for a font that I may only use on one project or at best occasionally. It just doesn't make economic sense. I spend less money on software programs that I use everyday.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should steal fonts or that the high cost is justification to steal. All I'm saying is the high cost relative to use, prevents me from purchasing and using more fonts.
I would bet that if the purchase price of fonts went down, gross revenues would go way up.
I agree roundly with artworx. Don't you think the price just *might* be a factor in the proliferation of font piracy? Maybe the primary one?
Just look at how (and for how much) Hoefler sells their fonts. You can't just buy Knockout #90, you have to get #90-94. That's $169. Let's say you want #90 and #68. You'll have to fork over $338.
No self-respecting designer uses those $5 2000 font megapack CDs. They use high-quality foundry fonts.
So I guess I should ask, "have you looked at how low font prices are these days?"
As stated, there is always two sides to a problem, or disagreement, and I do suggest you get both sides before you casually attack someone with information recieved from one group.
How could someone 'hijack' a whole collection, when they already owned them. They posted them on newsgroups, yes, but that is not piracy, that is copyright breach. You should get your terms correct.
Piracy is theft, but he was giving away something he already owned but that IS NOT PIRACY !
The alleged newsletter only given out to affected, or interested parties, is a lie by Hoefler. It was posted on their site, and other foundries sites, openly for all to see. This is totally against the legally binding settlement agreement that they agreed to. So what does that make them.
You are actually breaking the law by writing this in such a manner as the defendant was supposed to have legal protection against harassment. You have breached that legal agreement.
Font piracy (the theft of fonts without payment) is something that I do not agree with, but I do not agree with the casual way you, and the foundries, are misleading the public regarding the true facts of the case.
I do feel an apology should be given, or at the very least a re-write of the article using the correct terms.
Hi. I don't know who "Ge Em" is, aside from the General Motors corporation, but here are a couple of clarifications of his or her misleading points:
>How could someone 'hijack' a whole collection, when they already owned them?
Apostrophe does not own a license to any of my fonts. My studio is the sole distributor of my fonts, and we therefore have complete records of our licensees. Anyone who has the fonts and isn't in our records, therefore, has pirated them.
>The alleged newsletter only given out to affected, or interested parties,
>is a lie by Hoefler. It was posted on their site, and other foundries
>sites, openly for all to see. This is totally against the legally binding
>settlement agreement that they agreed to... You are actually breaking the
>law by writing this in such a manner as the defendant was supposed to have
>legal protection against harassment.
None of Apostrophe's rights in this matter have been compromised, and none of the terms of the settlement have been breached. If anyone's interested in reading our press release, it's online here: http://www.typography.com/press/pr_03_22_02.html.
Yes, true. And with links to it from many other sites, after you and emigre sent copies out to people. That is not settling with the umpires judgement.
As stated, I DO NOT support piracy, but this shove it in peoples faces attitude that you, Emigre, and the other foundries have adopted in regard to the outcome of the case in question seems to be misleading in the manner it is put forward. You have the right to gloat, pat your own backs, be proud, whatever, but not when the facts are skewed to impart incorrect information, and not when you, and others, are pushing this to be published extensively upon other sites that had nothing at all to do with the case. This is simply either ego stroking at the expense of the umpires decision, or a concerted effort on the part of a number of foundries to harass and publically humitiate someone, again at the expense of the umpires decision.
I state here, before you respond, that you legally and rightfully got the result you should have, but that should have been the end of it. The press release(s) as there have been more than one, should have stayed on your site. They did not.
I personally have found Commercial Font Foundries to be unreliable in regard to what they say and state, unreliable generally in the quality of service they provide, unfaithful in their dealings with the general public (once they have your money), overpriced and also double standards when it comes to piracy.
Please feel free to respond, but dont wait for me to reply, as am dropping membership to this site. I also point out that I made no effort to denigrate your name, yet you resorted to a remark about my initials. Thanks for bolstering my impression that foundries like yours DO NOT REALLY CARE.
Again, there was no "umpire's judgment." There was a settlement to which both parties agreed. In fact, as Apostrophe has pointed out on his own site, he wrote the settlement! This settlement entitled the foundries to send out press releases, so we sent out press releases. I really don't see what the problem is.
I hope you'll exempt me from the "commercial font foundries" with whom you're unhappy, unless there's something specific that I've done to upset you. My studio does its best to provide good service to our customers, and there's no double standard in our feelings about piracy: we don't like it. If you've had a bad experience with The Hoefler Type Foundry, I'd like to know about it -- you can e-mail me personally at jh@typography.com.
Education *is* indeed the best way to reduce piracy, but
that's why I was sad to see Berry not tell the whole story:
The truth is, Apostrophe has gone unpunished for his
actions, simply agreeing to stop the redistribution of
the fonts (which he had actually done a full year before
the lawsuit was even initiated anyway!). He didn't end
up going to trial, paying a red cent to any font house,
or suffering any real consequences for his piracy. So,
in the end, the only people who really benefited from
this ordeal were the lawyers...
You need to take this off line
Ge Em,
Per our email sign-up, we don't require personal information other than a valid email address. We don't even know who you are. The same is true for Ge Wiz. So if you want to contact us with your real info at an offline mailbox, we can talk then.
We are not protecting anyone. We simply don't have the information.
Please send your personal information to: webmaster@creativepro.com
Pamela Pfiffner, editor in chief
Ge Wiz, get a life and grow up
While hoefler could reply and apologise, and creative pro contact me, why can the person hiding behind his alias not aplogise for the incorrect, rude, insulting, illegal statement he made regarding me and theft of fonts from Hoefler type foundry.
A simple apology, in recognition of his baseless and false accusation is all I wanted, but his actions in total indifference has made me consider harder recompense. Creative Pro has offered to supply me with the sign on email address of this person,
One last chance to apologise
Graham Meade.
your response
Irrespective of your post, you are legally required to supply me the information I requested regarding the poster called Gee Wiz.
I have asked for this information for my solicitor and you refuse.
A discussion consists of opposite views and disagreements, but to state outright I stole fonts from someone (in other words claiming I am a pirate of fonts/software) is pure slander and illegal in all forms across the internet. I am within my rights to demand the information regarding this individual, and you are protecting him by not supplying it.
I have emailed J. Hoefler and he was kindly apologetic for his support of this persons statement, but the person himself is being hidden and protected by the creativepro team.
I want that information.
!
misleading, or misrepresenting again.
1. I did not rip off any fonts !
2. I personally have had fonts stolen from me by commercial foundries !
3. commercial foundries never seem to accuse other commercial foundries of piracy.
Liars
I just saw this URL:
http://jeff.cs.mcgill.ca/~luc/lawsuit.html
I don't know what Hoefler and his friends are so happy about. If I filed a 20 million dollar lawsuit and had to go home with nothing after spending so much money I would be very pissed and I would keep my mouth shut. Apostrophe seems quite open about the whole story so I don't think he's lying. The John Berry article on here is just Hoefler's email spinned off. John Berry and his editors should have had enough sense to research their information before publishing it because now they look stupid, biased, and insincere about their reporting.
If what Apostrophe says is true, and I have no reason to believe it is not, those seven foundries have put their whole industry in deep ka ka. Seven of them combined against one guy had to accept nothing for their cost and efforts, and the usenet orgy still goes on. Hoefler's fonts were uploaded on the mac fonts newsgroup just yesterday. Emigre's fonts are uploaded there everyday. There's a million Apostrophes but how many seven foundry coalitions are about to sue them and get nothing for it?
Wake the hell up Hoefler. You don't like piracy? What did you do about it and what did you get for your efforts to stop it? A press release that someone else wrote for you? So sad.
slander
Maybe I should get info on person who slandered me off in earlier post, supported by Hoefler, by stating that "You should not have ripped off the fonts", in other words, accusing me of font piracy. I feel like a few extra million bucks would go down nicely, unless an apology is posted.
creativepro responds
I do want to clarify two things from creativepro.com's point of view.
1) Any regular reader of John D. Berry's work knows that "dot-font" is an opinion column. It should be read as such.
2) If you re-read the column you see that the Hoefler release serves as a jumping off point for a larger dicussion of font piracy. Out of 15 paragraphs only 4 refer to the case in question.
Creativepro.com is a Web site for creative professionals. These are primarily people who are paid to produce creative work. We believe that those who do good work and who ask for money in exchange for that work should be compensated. That applies equally to type design and column writing or carpentry and cooking.
We also believe that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and the comments posted in this forum should be construed as just that -- the opinion of the person who posted them.
Thanks,
Pamela Pfiffner, editor in chief
?
4. The Plaintiffs may publicize on their respective websites that an Order has been obtained against the Internet alias "Apostrophe" for an undisclosed amount.
No mention of sending out posts here.
Have a nice day.
Appropriate Pricing
I think the pricing for fonts needs to be reconsidered. Most cost about $20 a face, so if I need only: Roman, Bold, Italic, and Bold Italic; that's $100 bucks. $100 for a font that I may only use on one project or at best occasionally. It just doesn't make economic sense. I spend less money on software programs that I use everyday.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should steal fonts or that the high cost is justification to steal. All I'm saying is the high cost relative to use, prevents me from purchasing and using more fonts.
I would bet that if the purchase price of fonts went down, gross revenues would go way up.
Pardon me
Uh, what?
I agree roundly with artworx. Don't you think the price just *might* be a factor in the proliferation of font piracy? Maybe the primary one?
Just look at how (and for how much) Hoefler sells their fonts. You can't just buy Knockout #90, you have to get #90-94. That's $169. Let's say you want #90 and #68. You'll have to fork over $338.
No self-respecting designer uses those $5 2000 font megapack CDs. They use high-quality foundry fonts.
So I guess I should ask, "have you looked at how low font prices are these days?"
Re: "A Font Pirate Is Brought to Justice" ... ?
There are twosides to everystory. See
http://www.hardcovermedia.com/lab/Pages/Misc/PRTHIS.htm
While you are there, check out the ever-growing library of font offerings (all high quality, all free) at "The L'ab." Go to
http://www.hardcovermedia.com/lab/
and click on "Grab."
Font Piracy
As stated, there is always two sides to a problem, or disagreement, and I do suggest you get both sides before you casually attack someone with information recieved from one group.
How could someone 'hijack' a whole collection, when they already owned them. They posted them on newsgroups, yes, but that is not piracy, that is copyright breach. You should get your terms correct.
Piracy is theft, but he was giving away something he already owned but that IS NOT PIRACY !
The alleged newsletter only given out to affected, or interested parties, is a lie by Hoefler. It was posted on their site, and other foundries sites, openly for all to see. This is totally against the legally binding settlement agreement that they agreed to. So what does that make them.
You are actually breaking the law by writing this in such a manner as the defendant was supposed to have legal protection against harassment. You have breached that legal agreement.
Font piracy (the theft of fonts without payment) is something that I do not agree with, but I do not agree with the casual way you, and the foundries, are misleading the public regarding the true facts of the case.
I do feel an apology should be given, or at the very least a re-write of the article using the correct terms.
Clarification (from Jonathan Hoefler)
Hi. I don't know who "Ge Em" is, aside from the General Motors corporation, but here are a couple of clarifications of his or her misleading points:
>How could someone 'hijack' a whole collection, when they already owned them?
Apostrophe does not own a license to any of my fonts. My studio is the sole distributor of my fonts, and we therefore have complete records of our licensees. Anyone who has the fonts and isn't in our records, therefore, has pirated them.
>The alleged newsletter only given out to affected, or interested parties,
>is a lie by Hoefler. It was posted on their site, and other foundries
>sites, openly for all to see. This is totally against the legally binding
>settlement agreement that they agreed to... You are actually breaking the
>law by writing this in such a manner as the defendant was supposed to have
>legal protection against harassment.
None of Apostrophe's rights in this matter have been compromised, and none of the terms of the settlement have been breached. If anyone's interested in reading our press release, it's online here: http://www.typography.com/press/pr_03_22_02.html.
press release
Yes, true. And with links to it from many other sites, after you and emigre sent copies out to people. That is not settling with the umpires judgement.
As stated, I DO NOT support piracy, but this shove it in peoples faces attitude that you, Emigre, and the other foundries have adopted in regard to the outcome of the case in question seems to be misleading in the manner it is put forward. You have the right to gloat, pat your own backs, be proud, whatever, but not when the facts are skewed to impart incorrect information, and not when you, and others, are pushing this to be published extensively upon other sites that had nothing at all to do with the case. This is simply either ego stroking at the expense of the umpires decision, or a concerted effort on the part of a number of foundries to harass and publically humitiate someone, again at the expense of the umpires decision.
I state here, before you respond, that you legally and rightfully got the result you should have, but that should have been the end of it. The press release(s) as there have been more than one, should have stayed on your site. They did not.
I personally have found Commercial Font Foundries to be unreliable in regard to what they say and state, unreliable generally in the quality of service they provide, unfaithful in their dealings with the general public (once they have your money), overpriced and also double standards when it comes to piracy.
Please feel free to respond, but dont wait for me to reply, as am dropping membership to this site. I also point out that I made no effort to denigrate your name, yet you resorted to a remark about my initials. Thanks for bolstering my impression that foundries like yours DO NOT REALLY CARE.
Re: press release
Again, there was no "umpire's judgment." There was a settlement to which both parties agreed. In fact, as Apostrophe has pointed out on his own site, he wrote the settlement! This settlement entitled the foundries to send out press releases, so we sent out press releases. I really don't see what the problem is.
I hope you'll exempt me from the "commercial font foundries" with whom you're unhappy, unless there's something specific that I've done to upset you. My studio does its best to provide good service to our customers, and there's no double standard in our feelings about piracy: we don't like it. If you've had a bad experience with The Hoefler Type Foundry, I'd like to know about it -- you can e-mail me personally at jh@typography.com.
Regards,
Jonathan Hoefler
www.typography.com
Half the Truth
Education *is* indeed the best way to reduce piracy, but
that's why I was sad to see Berry not tell the whole story:
The truth is, Apostrophe has gone unpunished for his
actions, simply agreeing to stop the redistribution of
the fonts (which he had actually done a full year before
the lawsuit was even initiated anyway!). He didn't end
up going to trial, paying a red cent to any font house,
or suffering any real consequences for his piracy. So,
in the end, the only people who really benefited from
this ordeal were the lawyers...
Education? Mr Berry, that's exactly correct!
hhp